Kane Gruber ([info]grubi) wrote,
@ 2008-10-21 14:05:00
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Whiners of the World Unite!
Farmers aren't allowed to bitch about "socialism" as long as they participate in a local seed co-op. That's the rule.

People with money aren't allowed to bitch about "socialism" if they keep their cash in a credit union. That's the rule.

No-one who supports the GI Bill is allowed to bitch about socialism. That's the rule.

(See what I did there?)

Basically no-one who participates in a socialist institution of their own choice should be bitching about socialism. We have socialist institutions in this country and socialist-inspired institutions as well that even the staunchest conservative supports (including the 40-hour work week, child labor laws, days off, etc). It's ridiculous to support them but then decry the philosophy that created them.

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[info]sk4p
2008-10-21 06:25 pm UTC (link)
While I've been very left-leaning lately, I feel in the interest of my intellectual integrity I should call you on it: you're comparing apples and oranges.

Socialism in the form of taxes is not voluntary (unless I'm suddenly free to opt out of paying my taxes). Credit unions, voluntary seed co-ops, etc. are, well, voluntary.

I do not feel participating in a voluntary cooperative constitutes a waiver of the right to complain about compulsory participation in others.

(Let me be clear: I am no supporter of McCain on this one. But I am disagreeing with your reasoning here.)

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[info]laputain
2008-10-21 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Socialism in the form of taxes is not voluntary (unless I'm suddenly free to opt out of paying my taxes)

Well, you pretty much are if you're a billionaire, what with loopholes and incentives and shady lawyers and whatnot. Or you can just threaten to deliberately crash your company and get the government to pay you, just like in Soviet Russia.

But I do agree that effective socialism - of the kind which I'm fighting of - is based on co-operation rather than coercion, or rather coercion only applied to a tiny minority of parasticial goons.

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[info]sk4p
2008-10-21 06:36 pm UTC (link)
If Mr. G. will forgive my hijacking for a moment: Hi there! [info]drquuxum and I saw Peter Hammill in concert a week ago and were thinking of you!

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[info]sk4p
2008-10-21 06:42 pm UTC (link)
And for a more substantive reply than my other one:

Well, you pretty much are if you're a billionaire, what with loopholes and incentives and shady lawyers and whatnot.

This is certainly true; however, the "populist anti-socialists", if I may use the term, to whom the GOP wishes to appeal do not approve of such loopholes or shady lawyers very much. They may think the taxes should honestly and openly be lower for corporations than they are, but I suspect the average Republican man in the street does not approve of corporations getting better deals than he does just because they can afford lawyers.

So it's important (if they wish to maintain the support of the base ... especially the Christian conservatives, who are more willing to tax for social programs, cf. Huckabee) that they denounce socialism in an "open" way and not let it go by on the premise you (correctly!) pointed out.

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[info]grubi
2008-10-21 07:28 pm UTC (link)
Let's not forget that the vast majority of these people who complain about socialism don't know the first thing about it.

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[info]mainfisch
2008-10-22 08:26 am UTC (link)
"Socialism in the form of taxes"? Jesus murphy. The word "Socialism" really has become outworn by various propaganda machines. :-D

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[info]grubi
2008-10-22 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, tell me about it. To think that the mere thought of taxation is "socialism" blows the mind.

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[info]mainfisch
2008-10-22 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Except the simple mind.

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[info]misterroastbeef
2008-10-23 05:05 am UTC (link)
Look we all pay taxes. If you're successful because of the opportunities you get in this country, you should pay more. Sucks but true. It is all relative.. That's the dues you pay for opportunity. Blah, blah. Acid is groovy, kill the pigs. Oh, yeah public education....police force and fire fighters. All socialist!!!!

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